Thread:Uskok/@comment-27295021-20180325125431/@comment-996391-20180411200709

Ninclow wrote: Yes, we don't have any specific facts about Captain Hawkins himself, but since the commentary confirmed he was the father of Jim Hawkins, and Jim Hawkins embarked on the adventure of Treasure Island not too long after his father's passing, we also know that those events did occur in POTC canon in some shape or form.

That's just you speculating, and speculations are not allowed in our articles.

Ninclow wrote:Anything else would be like rejecting the idea of Reginald Marmaduke Bracegirdle-Penwallow being the Director of African Affairs for the EITC just because he have been stated to hold the tile but we don't actually "see him in action", as it were.

For someone who claims to have a copy of The Price of Freedom you show a surprising lack of knowledge about its characters. The book explains everything about Lord Penwallow, his job, his duties, and his titles.

Ninclow wrote: A story untold is not a story non-existent. Especially since this particular story is one we already know and don't need to have repeated.

Again, the stories from Treasure Island and Peter Pan have never been told in Pirates of the Caribbean.

Ninclow wrote: Oh, I'm sorry, am I to understand I imagined it when James Hook was confirmed to exist in POTC canon by the merit of having been mentioned in a canon source, then?

James Hook was adapted by Ann C. Crispin for her novel. The rest of the Peter Pan characters were not.

Ninclow wrote: So - you're denying the mention and confirmation of Hawkins and James existing in the POTC canon? You might as well be. Okay, chief, I can sot of see where you're coming from, but that's not how storytelling works. Storytelling is a many-layered and fickle friend, and you can't cherry-pick stories like that and get the actual full picture. And you most certainly can't have one without the other. You can't have the father if Jim Hawkins exist without Jim Hawkins existing, his mother existing, Admiral Benbow existing, Squire Trewlany, etc. Because then he wouldn't be the father of Jim Hawkins, as confirmed in the commentary, he would just have been named after the character of Jim Hawkins, which he is not. He is his father. The same thing goes for James.

James was gone for decades on end, and when he appeared, he was not a day older than when he disappeared, and he feared children. These facts hints at his time spent in Neverland, where time stands still. I believe the book also mentioned that James lost his hand and had gotten a Hook? How did he lose it if it wasn't for Peter Pan? How did he stay ageless without Neverland, the Fountain of Youth notwithstanding? The answer is he couldn't. The implications of the character's lives given by these tidbits of information, at least as far as we can logically trace them without speculation due to pre-existing knowledge of what they mean (pre-existing POTC lore, that is), is as much part of canon as the characters themselves. Just because they Jack or Beckett isn't there to witness Long John Silver marshal disaffected former buccaneers to commit mutiny, dosent meant that others weren't there to witness it without those two knowing.

If Hawkins had been confirmed in the commentary to have merely have been named after Jim Hawkins, and James given another name, such as "George", and that there was a George with a fear of kids, not having aged and lost a hand, with nothing suggesting he was anymore than inspired by the character of James Hook, I would have been behind your assertions 100%. But Captain Hawkins is Jim's father, and James is James Hook from Peter Pan. They might be 'borrowed elements', but that's irrelevant. They still have a place in POTC universe, and so, necessarily, will the events and circumstances leading to their presence there be as well, unless the official stories from where those characters hail directly contradict POTC canon.

I will, however, commend your knowledge on how to say "nothing" in several languages. The next time you decide to reject a notion for the lack of knowledge on something that way, please, feel free to add "ingenting" to the list, which is the Norwegian word. ^^'

The problem here is that you still don't understand how this Wiki works. This is not the Storytelling Wiki. This is not the Ninclow's Theories and Speculations Wiki. This is the Pirates of the Caribbean Wiki. We cover only the Pirates of the Caribbean materials. That includes the film series, novels, comics, video games, etc. We do not cover non-POTC materials. The novels Peter Pan and Treasure Island are not POTC materials. No one is denying the existence of characters named Hawkins and James in the POTC universe. What we do deny is stories that were never told in the POTC universe. James Hook was brought into the POTC universe by Ann C. Crispin, and what she revealed abut him is in the article. But Squire Trelawney, The Lost Boys, etc.? That's just you speculating. Speculations are not facts. The content of our articles is based on facts, not speculations. Please, show me a in-universe mention of some other Peter Pan character or a Treasure Island character in another POTC material. If you can't, any further discussion is useless.

Ninclow wrote: I got to stop you there, because Captain Hawkins isn't based on a character from Treasure Island, he is a character from Treasure Island, as confirmed by the commentary, appearing in POTC canon. I could have bought that assertion very cheaply indeed if Jack Sparrow or any other main character at any point in On Stranger Tides had sat down at an inn/tavern called something like 'the Hanged Man' and struck up a conversation with a young lad gathering plates who told him, when inquired where his parents were at, that his mother was resting upstairs. Then Jack or whoever asked 'what about your father?', and the boy, let's call him Tim, got all sad-faced and told them that he died shortly before, but that they managed because a friend of theirs, a magistrate as well as a doctor, looked in on them from time to time. Okay, that would have been based on Jim Hawkins and his life, but there is a difference between something being based on something, and something being eluded to. If the creators and/or official, valid contributors to canon sources says "this is meant to be Jim Hawkins's father", then it is meant to be Jim Hawkins's father and not someone based on him. The commentary didn't say Captain Hawkins was based on Jim's father, it was supposed to be Jim's father. That's not the same thing.

I repeat, being intended to be something and actually being something are two different things. James Norrington was intended to be an evil character who would join forces with Barbossa but he ended up being an honorable naval officer.

Ninclow wrote: What does that have to do with anything? The fact that the timelines don't fit don't mean that the two stories don't co-exist within POTC canon, it simply means that - again, within POTC's own canon, the events of Treasure Island has been placed at a different time.

Speculations, not facts.

Ninclow wrote: You've spoken with Ann C. Crispin? That's so cool! :-D

She don't need to represent Disney for her work to be a part of their extended universe. I doubt she would've been allowed to write and publish a POTC book without green light from Disney, who last I checked held all the rights.

I did. This Wiki had the honor to have her as one of our members for some time. She was very helpful and answered all the questions we asked about her book, both here and on Keep to the Code forum. Yes, she was hired by Disney to write an adult novel set in a POTC world. She was instructed to write the story of how Jack worked for the EITC and Cutler Beckett, culminating in the sinking of the Wicked Wench. But that's where Disney's influence ends. She developed the story, she wrote the characters, she put the mention of James in the book, and that mention was just a joke. It was all her own doing. There is no "great Disney plan" to combine two or three different universes into one.

Ninclow wrote: SO - just to be clear, that would also mean that human feces don't exist in Pirates of the Caribbean because we never see anyone depicted to take a dump either, right? And the Welsh language - that doesn't exist either because we never see anyone speak it in Pirates of the Caribbean?

Also, any chance that you would be willing to share The Price of Freedom with me if you have it on PDF? My hard-cover copy was left back up on our hut on the other side of the country, see. ^^'

Exactly! I knew you were a smart cookie.

The longer the waiting, the sweeter the reading. I'm sure you'll get your hands on the book sooner or later. In the meantime, you can read a few excerpts on Ann C. Crispin's website. It's not much but it's better than nothing.

HarryPotterRules1 wrote: Ninclow has a point about James Hook and Jim Hawkins. Word of God, for example, is the highest form of canon - it's how we know that Stranger and Dead Men take place in the 1750s and what we use to date the timeline with. So that means that, per Word of God, in the commentary, Jim Hawkin's father is the father of Jim Hawkins from Treasure Island.

On this Wiki the highest form of canon are movies. The Word of God can be wrong and it has been wrong on several occasions in this franchise. That's why we take it with caution on this Wiki.

HarryPotterRules1 wrote: And given that you still age with the Fountain of Youth, you just take someone's remaining years like Blackbeard planned to do to Angelica, that means that the only place "James" could have gone is, indeed, Neverland.

We don't know the exact details of how the Fountain's version of immortality works. Maybe Angelica won't age until she lives all the years she had taken from Blackbeard and once all the years are spent she will continue living her natural life. If that's the case the Fountain could be the place where James became immortal. But that's just another story that will probably never be told in this universe.

HarryPotterRules1 wrote: Apparently, according to Ninclow on Discord, I am not allowed to comment on here as it's "disrespectful". Can someone correct him?

Really? "disrespectful" in what way?